Comments on: SVG and VML in One Chameleon File http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file Mahemoff's Podcast/Blog - Web, Programming, Usability from the Author of 'Ajax Design Patterns' (AjaxPatterns.org) Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:36:19 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.3 hourly 1 By: pawel http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-452224 pawel Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:49:03 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-452224 <p>My valid Chameleonpage: http://www.pixelfans.de/test/svg/wappen_all.php</p> <p>I use PHP for the HTTP_ACCEPT and the right content-type and the tricky cc of Julian.</p> My valid Chameleonpage:
http://www.pixelfans.de/test/svg/wappen_all.php

I use PHP for the HTTP_ACCEPT and the right content-type and the tricky cc of Julian.

]]> By: pawel http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-452134 pawel Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:32:36 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-452134 <p>http://www.pixelfans.de/test/svg/wappen.html It's my way, but no valid (cause is )</p> http://www.pixelfans.de/test/svg/wappen.html
It’s my way, but no valid (cause is )

]]> By: Microsoft and SVG. In the same room? | otrops http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-451343 Microsoft and SVG. In the same room? | otrops Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:00:54 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-451343 <p>[...] have no idea if this means that we’ll no longer need to use workarounds like SVGWeb or chameleon files to get Internet Explorer to support SVG. At the very least it means that Microsoft recognizes that [...]</p> [...] have no idea if this means that we’ll no longer need to use workarounds like SVGWeb or chameleon files to get Internet Explorer to support SVG. At the very least it means that Microsoft recognizes that [...]

]]> By: Julien http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-449634 Julien Fri, 04 Sep 2009 20:55:36 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-449634 <p>Hi, </p> <p>Interesting topic.</p> <p>I did several tests with a chameleon SVG / VML chameleon page.</p> <p>In this folders are some test files : http://www.altipoint.ch/svg_vml/</p> <p>All have the same content, excepted that the DOCTYPE defintion was removed for some of them. Before some files, I put an underscore so that it is possible to see the content of the folder.</p> <p>The main problem relates to expected file extensions: xhtml, svg, and xml for Opera. htm, html, vml for MSIE.</p> <p>Something more neutral is using no extension and specify Content-type with a meta tag. But this works only with MSIE (not Firefox nor Opera).</p> <p>The presence of a DOCTYPE is also a problem with MSIE 8 and prevents the VML to display.</p> <p>The ".svg" and "xhtml" extensions provocate a "Save as" popup to show.</p> <p>The file extension in which I have the most hope for a hybrid page is ".xml". But the XML nodes display in MSIE.</p> <p>I agree that url rewriting is a good solution.</p> <p>One challenge that remains is displaying side by side VML and SVG content in MSIE* so that comparing the SVG and VML outputs can be done in a glance. Can this be achieved ?</p> <p>(*using Adobe's plugin or other for the SVG part).</p> <p>Note that with the ".svg" extension, Firefox and Opera display all correclty. For a local file, MSIE displays the page source code, but a click on the "Refresh" button then make the page interpreted as xhtml/vml. Interesting for local testing. However this cannot be combined with Adobe's SVG plugin.</p> Hi,

Interesting topic.

I did several tests with a chameleon SVG / VML chameleon page.

In this folders are some test files :
http://www.altipoint.ch/svg_vml/

All have the same content, excepted that the DOCTYPE defintion was removed for some of them. Before some files, I put an underscore so that it is possible to see the content of the folder.

The main problem relates to expected file extensions:
xhtml, svg, and xml for Opera.
htm, html, vml for MSIE.

Something more neutral is using no extension and specify Content-type with a meta tag.
But this works only with MSIE (not Firefox nor Opera).

The presence of a DOCTYPE is also a problem with MSIE 8 and prevents the VML to display.

The “.svg” and “xhtml” extensions provocate a “Save as” popup to show.

The file extension in which I have the most hope for a hybrid page is “.xml”. But the XML nodes display in MSIE.

I agree that url rewriting is a good solution.

One challenge that remains is displaying side by side VML and SVG content in MSIE* so that comparing the SVG and VML outputs can be done in a glance. Can this be achieved ?

(*using Adobe’s plugin or other for the SVG part).

Note that with the “.svg” extension, Firefox and Opera display all correclty. For a local file, MSIE displays the page source code, but a click on the “Refresh” button then make the page interpreted as xhtml/vml.
Interesting for local testing. However this cannot be combined with Adobe’s SVG plugin.

]]> By: paradisaeidae http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-435377 paradisaeidae Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:50:11 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-435377 <p>Better yet:: http://www.savarese.com/software/svgplugin/</p> Better yet:: http://www.savarese.com/software/svgplugin/

]]> By: Anonymous http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-433202 Anonymous Fri, 22 May 2009 07:34:32 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-433202 <p>RewriteEngine On RewriteCond %{HTTP<em>USER</em>AGENT} ^(.<em>MSIE.</em>)|(Lynx.<em>)$ RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} ^.+.xhtml$ RewriteRule ^.</em>$ - [T=text/html] [L]</p> <p>Or better yet check for HTTP Accept header for application/xhtml+xml.</p> RewriteEngine On
RewriteCond %{HTTPUSERAGENT} ^(.MSIE.)|(Lynx.)$
RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} ^.+.xhtml$
RewriteRule ^.$ – [T=text/html] [L]

Or better yet check for HTTP Accept header for application/xhtml+xml.

]]> By: Mark Stone http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-431034 Mark Stone Mon, 04 May 2009 11:13:46 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-431034 <p>Impressive. Did you look into another [nice] approach to enabling SVG in IE: http://www.amplesdk.com/examples/svg/</p> <p>Following modules of SVG are implemented in draft (still pretty much): * 5. Document Structure * 8. Paths * 9. Basic Shapes * 10. Text</p> Impressive. Did you look into another [nice] approach to enabling SVG in IE: http://www.amplesdk.com/examples/svg/

Following modules of SVG are implemented in draft (still pretty much):
* 5. Document Structure
* 8. Paths
* 9. Basic Shapes
* 10. Text

]]> By: Jonathan Lister http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-430704 Jonathan Lister Fri, 01 May 2009 15:58:09 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-430704 <p>Nice. On the topic of using this to distribute with a TiddlyWiki, I imagine you could develop the TiddlyTemplating[1] techniques to publish an image written in one format in your chameleon format.</p> <p>[1] http://tiddlywiki.org/wiki/TiddlyTemplating</p> Nice. On the topic of using this to distribute with a TiddlyWiki, I imagine you could develop the TiddlyTemplating[1] techniques to publish an image written in one format in your chameleon format.

[1] http://tiddlywiki.org/wiki/TiddlyTemplating

]]> By: mahemoff http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-430700 mahemoff Fri, 01 May 2009 14:50:18 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-430700 <p>Jeff, useful feedback.</p> <p>You probably could set things up on the server, but a key goal here is simplicity - e.g. so I could just mail around a file. A lot of this is related to our work on TiddlyWiki, which is just a single file and where we'd like to embed drawings.</p> <p>IE9 - interesting thought! It will probably be possible to use if a conditional IE version hack, but I'll be happy enough if SVG is supported and cross that bridge when that day happens.</p> <p>It probably doesn't work for gradients etc, you're right - hopefully this thought experiment will lead others to think of further refinements that might work for things like that.</p> <p>It's true - using a higher level abstraction might end up being the best option for this, much as it would be nice to avoid relying on JS processing. At least it's worth exploring how far we can go without it.</p> Jeff, useful feedback.

You probably could set things up on the server, but a key goal here is simplicity – e.g. so I could just mail around a file. A lot of this is related to our work on TiddlyWiki, which is just a single file and where we’d like to embed drawings.

IE9 – interesting thought! It will probably be possible to use if a conditional IE version hack, but I’ll be happy enough if SVG is supported and cross that bridge when that day happens.

It probably doesn’t work for gradients etc, you’re right – hopefully this thought experiment will lead others to think of further refinements that might work for things like that.

It’s true – using a higher level abstraction might end up being the best option for this, much as it would be nice to avoid relying on JS processing. At least it’s worth exploring how far we can go without it.

]]> By: Rob Russell http://softwareas.com/svg-and-vml-in-one-chameleon-file/comment-page-1#comment-430698 Rob Russell Fri, 01 May 2009 14:48:35 +0000 http://softwareas.com/?p=531#comment-430698 <p>Great work trying to beat everything into one file but I think you still run the risk that you mentioned earlier, namely "if someone changes one, they probably won't bother changing the other one" In this case the editor is likely to know about the data that's not SVG in the file but they won't likely be able to edit it. I expect that for editing they'd have to split into two files then re-merge since one tool won't edit both formats as far as I know.</p> <p>Maybe it could be a workable format with a script that does the split & re-merging. The chameleon file could also see more use for sites that generate vector graphics server-side and don't want to serve different content to different UAs.</p> Great work trying to beat everything into one file but I think you still run the risk that you mentioned earlier, namely
“if someone changes one, they probably won’t bother changing the other one”
In this case the editor is likely to know about the data that’s not SVG in the file but they won’t likely be able to edit it. I expect that for editing they’d have to split into two files then re-merge since one tool won’t edit both formats as far as I know.

Maybe it could be a workable format with a script that does the split & re-merging. The chameleon file could also see more use for sites that generate vector graphics server-side and don’t want to serve different content to different UAs.

]]>